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stlnats

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Reply with quote  #1 
After seeing Cody's Shenandoah 1922 dated $10, it occurred to me that I don't recall seeing a thread of pairs of series 1902 nbns, one of which reflected the bank's charter extension in the early 1920s.  I think (hope) it's generally understood that the OCC changed charter extension rules in the 1920s, eventually ending with perpetual charters.  At any rate here's the only example I can think of in "my" area.  Not exactly the prettiest notes, but you take want you can get. Ironically, I had traded away an even lower grade 1902 note and, once I became interested in this variety, it took a number of years to find another.  Live and learn. 

The bank's initial charter granted for 20 years in 1902.  (A plain back printed with a dated back face):

6125 1902 PB 1902 date 6978.jpg 
Charter extended 20 years later in 1922, with Federal sigs appropriate to the date:

6125 1902 PB 1922 $5 1024.jpg

The layouts are essentially the same except for the "THE" in the title and the date.

These are somewhat uncommon, so it'd be very interesting to see examples from other areas you may have.

What fun!


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DoctorPaper

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Reply with quote  #2 
Same deal in Milwaukee with #64. Initial charter dated in 1902, extended in 1922. Unfortunately, my 2 examples are different denominations, but the principle is the same. Same bank officials through the years.

Milwaukee, 02PB,  (ch.64, FWNB), $20.1902.jpg 
Milwaukee, 02PB,  (ch.64, FWNB), $10.1922.jpg

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stlnats

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Reply with quote  #3 
Actually 64 is even more fun and is a great example that I wasn't aware of. 

This is why I love big, "common" banks.  Often lots going on at a relatively low economic cost (except for time researching which generally isn't a cost at all).  

I'm sure you know all this Doc, but I wanted to document it so I can find this example later.  As originally written, the NB Act forced the bank to liquidate in 1882 and form a new bank with a new charter (2715).  This anomaly in the law was quickly corrected so my 170 (3rd NB of STL) which was organized less than a year later avoided this exercise altogether, just going through normal charter extensions every 20 years.  170 kept its charter number throughout and only changed its name due to a merger in 1919.  At any rate, the Milwaukee bank was able to regain its original charter number in 1911 and name (The First NB of Milwaukee).  Interestingly, its new dated back series of 1902 notes still carried the first 20 year extension date of 2715 (April 25, 1902).  In 1919. 4817 and 64 were consolidated/merged under charter 64 with the First Wisconsin title (as on your $20).  Since charter 64 was the survivor, the 1902 charter date continued to be appropriate to appear on its plain back notes for its last 3 years before extension in 1922 (your $10).  And despite the dates, the treasury serials indicate that your 2 notes were printed within 4 years of each other: the $20 in late summer 1919 (just after the name change) and the $10 in early 1923.  

What fun!

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53sanmon

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Reply with quote  #4 
Both of your notes are from the Third Charter with the first note from the Second Issue and the second note from the Third Issue.
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DoctorPaper

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Reply with quote  #5 
StlNats:

#64 in Milwaukee is an absolutely insane bank to collect. There are both title changes on the same charter #64 (FNB of Milwaukee and First Wisconsin NB of Milwaukee) and charter # flips on the same name-FNB Milwaukee(#64 to #2715, and then back to #64). Throw in the reissue in 1922 we're focusing on in this thread, and the fact this bank put out notes going back to the 1875 series, there are a myriad of notes required to finish a "complete type/denomination set" on the bank. Some of the representative notes are unique, like the 1875 $5 on #64, FNB Milwaukee. If you ignore the reissue aspect there are 19 known denomination/type examples on the bank, 22 if you throw in the reissues of 1922. Pretty complex and difficult collection to complete for a "common bank." One of these days I'll post what I've got.

I agree with StNats that the common banks provide collecting opportunities that many of the 'better, scarcer' banks don't, and often contain unrecognized scarcities that can be obtained a reasonable prices, if you know what you are looking for.
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stlnats

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Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorPaper
StlNats:

#64 in Milwaukee is an absolutely insane bank to collect. There are both title changes on the same charter #64 (FNB of Milwaukee and First Wisconsin NB of Milwaukee) and charter # flips on the same name-FNB Milwaukee(#64 to #2715, and then back to #64). Throw in the reissue in 1922 we're focusing on in this thread, and the fact this bank put out notes going back to the 1875 series, there are a myriad of notes required to finish a "complete type/denomination set" on the bank. Some of the representative notes are unique, like the 1875 $5 on #64, FNB Milwaukee. If you ignore the reissue aspect there are 19 known denomination/type examples on the bank, 22 if you throw in the reissues of 1922. Pretty complex and difficult collection to complete for a "common bank." One of these days I'll post what I've got.

I agree with StNats that the common banks provide collecting opportunities that many of the 'better, scarcer' banks don't, and often contain unrecognized scarcities that can be obtained a reasonable prices, if you know what you are looking for.


And don't forget notes with and without regional letters, with and without treasury serials and the DB/PB "mules (for what of a better term) which add to the fun. Too bad 64 didn't use engraved sigs nor print enough notes to wander into the prefixed serials all of which can result in even more varieties, some of which can be incredibly rare for even the largest banks.    
  

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stlnats

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 53sanmon
Both of your notes are from the Third Charter with the first note from the Second Issue and the second note from the Third Issue.


I don't think I understand the second and third issue comment; all 4 notes are series of 1902 plain backs.  In the case of 6125, the bank received its first and only charter in 1902 and received (in order) red seals, dated backs and plain backs.  I believe all of the plain backs dated 1902 were mated with dated back faces - essentially a separate variety some refer to as 1902 DB/PB.  The bank's charter was extended in the normal course in 1922 and thereafter received series of 1902 plain backs with 1922 dates.  The dates and change of federal officials' signatures was sufficient to meet the distinctive currency required by the regs, which became moot latter in 1922 when banks' charters were extended to 99 years.  

Altho a bit inaccurate and inevitably brings up the whole "charter" discussion, I do like the term "fourth charter" to distinguish the series of 1902 plain backs received by the relatively small number of banks upon extension in 1922 since these are as real a variety as a 1902 red seal or dated back.      



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53sanmon

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Reply with quote  #8 
Sorry, but I did not understand before your term of "plain back printed with a dated back face".  I looked through some of my nationals and found this plain back that appears to be a "plain back printed with a dated back face" (see below picture).  Please advise if this is correct.FR 599 Obv.jpg
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MEC2

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Reply with quote  #9 
Looks right to me, assuming the PB/DB face is when a plain back appears with a face that references "Or Other Securities"...
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stlnats

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Reply with quote  #10 

"Sorry, but I did not understand before your term of "plain back printed with a dated back face".  I looked through some of my nationals and found this plain back that appears to be a "plain back printed with a dated back face" (see below picture).  Please advise if this is correct."

Yes. 

After the expiration of the Vreeland Aldrich Act in 1915, existing printing plates with the "date back" obligation on the face generally continued to be used until they wore out and needed replacement.  Replacement plates had "or other securities" removed from the security clause and replaced with "deposited with the Treasurer of the" found on the Collinsville note serial 1012 and both charter 64 notes.  

As a cost savings in avoiding reworking all of the printing plates, the reasoning was along the lines that the dated back clause on the face would be just fine since the "or" still permitted notes to be secured solely by US Government bonds.  These 1902 DB/PB notes are v
ery common for small banks but are also found on even some of the banks with large circulation, such as 4178 in St Louis.  I think that all of the series of 1902 plain back notes from charter 1620 that are listed in the NBN Census are of the DB/PB type.  

edited to add:  BTW, Huntoon's lead article in the May/June Paper Money has a more complete, and perhaps coherent, explanation of this along with an analysis of a possibly unique error in the security clause that occurred during the reentry of design elements to touch up and prolong the life of a worn face plate (which just happens to be my note).  

 


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53sanmon

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Reply with quote  #11 
I found an example of a 1902 DB/PB mule type (printed with "SECURED BY UNITED STATES BONDS OR OTHER SECURITIES" instead of "SECURED BY UNITED STATES BONDS DEPOSITED WITH THE TREASURER OF THE") from Friedberg's "Paper Money Of The United States" on the $10 note from this unknown edition.  Friedberg's 18th edition had a different 1902 DB/PB mule type example [issued by First National Bank Of Fairbanks (Charter 7718)].

nmah.jpg 


I also searched in the Smithsonian site for the above note and found it was approved November 11, 1908.  It appears from the plate letters ("D", "E" & "F" for the $10 notes and "B" for the $20 note) that BEP used the same plates for both the "date back" notes (i.e. second issue of the third charter period) and the "plain back" notes (i.e. third issue of the third charter period).  This is based upon the data from Don C. Kelly's CD that was included in his "National Bank Notes" (sixth edition).

NMAH-AHB2014q000001-005884-000001[1].jpg

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stlnats

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Reply with quote  #12 
Given the initials at the upper left on the Smithsonian proof, it's likely that this represents an alteration of the face plate used to print red seals for the bank  after passage of the Vreeland Aldrich Act in 1908 to include "or other securities" in the securities clause.  I believe this alteration occurred for the vast majority - if not all - of the face plates then in use to print series 1882 brown back and 1902 red seals. Existing printed stocks of brown backs and red seals were used up in the normal course (since there were no issues of emergency currency until 1914 the old security obligation continued to work just fine), but subsequent printings would have used the altered face plates with dated backs. 

I find it interesting the Friedberg continues to use the old fashioned "third charter" rubric (fully realizing my use of fourth charter to distinguish the topic of this thread).  The records I've seen at National Archives use the more precise series of 1882, series of 1902 or in some cases for redemptions of currency for extended banks "old series."  Depending on the date of the grant of a bank's charter, Series of 1875 notes were issued to banks until 1901, the various varieties of Series of 1882 notes (aka second charter) were issued to banks between 1882 and 1921 and Series of 1902 notes (aka third or fourth charter) were issued between 1902 to 1929.  That is, different series of notes were issued to different banks at the same time; there was no such thing as a charter period except as it related to the number of years for which a charter was granted or extended for a bank.    

It's particularly ironic that they illustrate their "third issue" (whatever that means) with the DB/PB variety, a remarkably poor example of what a prototypical plain back should look like.  But I increasingly hear folks talk about the obverse and reverse of notes (argh!) so tilting at windmills is for another day... 


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mikelaw

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Reply with quote  #13 
Wow. Amazing research. Thanks for sharing. I never fully understood the significance of the “Engraved Date” that appears on the obverse of large size nationals but this thread helps a lot.

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jpeg 076DB54E-208C-45B7-AD53-7065710119B6.jpeg (885.51 KB, 62 views)
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stlnats

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikelaw
I never fully understood the significance of the “Engraved Date” that appears on the obverse of large size nationals but this thread helps a lot.



Two small caveats.  First notice the discussion in the page you attached indicates "most plate dates."  My guess is that it's applicable maybe as many as 95% of the nationals encountered.  The remaining small percentage reflects different practices over time but which are reasonably close to the charter date.  One I still don't understand is for charter 4178.  The bank's series of 1882 $5s carry a date of 1896 (which I think was when the bank's first $5s were ordered) vs the $10s which carries the charter date of 1889. 

The other caveat is the discussion also suggests that the date may indicate a title change.  I'm not sure how common it was to change the date simply due to a name change. in fact the $20 on charter 64 maintained the extension date when it retook its original charter number in 1911 AND after the merger in 1919. The 1922 date on the $10 note reflects the extension of the charter, previously extended in 1902 for the bank which then operated under charter 2715.  

C'est la vie but still What Fun...


 


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Cody71086

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Reply with quote  #15 
Here is another pair of Iowa 3rd and 4th Charters. The 4th Charter has a name change after annexation.

lyons.jpeg  ly.jpg 


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bgguy

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Reply with quote  #16 
6144_1902PB_$20_4121.jpg  6144_1902PBb_$20_2208.jpg 
For Maryland The First N.B. of Mount Savage, The First N.B. of Friendsville, and Citizens N.B. of Pocomoke City are the only three banks that issued 1902/22 combinations.  But The First N.B. of Mount Savage is the only bank with known notes from both.

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stlnats

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Reply with quote  #17 
Both the Lyons and Mt Savage pairs are nice and interesting examples.  Thanks for sharing.  

Charter 66 has a lot going on, with both a name and a place change.  And it just snuck under the regulatory wire since The Act of July 1, 1922 gave all banks then in existence a 99 year life.   That is, if the bank's charter had been scheduled for extension in early July it would have been covered by the new law and the second note could likely have carried a 1902 date.  

What fun.

  

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